| Author | Is it art? |
Jozsef Fejes
Super Administrator
Posts: 10
Joined: 18.01.07
 | | Posted on 24-01-2007 08:30 | |
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See my picture (559267), it's all explained there (in short: it was computer-generated by a program that I made), the question is: do you think it's art or not? Pro: creating that program is art, con: using that program is not, I agree with both (that's why the program is a secret, so that others can't use it without making any efforts). But what about the result here, creating the program (only for this project, only for this one picture!) and then using it? It took a lot of work, time, ideas, creativity, the result is quite amazing, it's everything but a handmade drawing. Maybe there's no perfect answer for this when we only think in 'yes' and 'no', that's why I'd like to start this debate. Hope it will be of benefit  |
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| Author | RE: Is it art? |
Paul Fisher
Super Administrator
Posts: 277
Joined: 25.06.06
 | | Posted on 24-01-2007 09:44 | |
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I think you pretty much sum up my feelings about it. On the one hand the project is about using technology to create a piece of art that was never possible before. In using technology you are simply adhering to this principle. I also agree that the creation of the software itself is an art form - and instead of using your hand to create the image you have used code. The effect itself is also stunning.
The only real cons are more to do with the legalities of the project, in terms of copyright and use of inappropriate images. So long as the technology is used in the spirit with which you have used it the that's fine, but as you say, more widespread use simply as an upload tool would degrade the original intention of the project.
I would say that in the context of your image, yes this is art. |
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| Author | RE: Is it art? |
Anon.
Member
Posts: 13
Joined: 23.01.07
 | | Posted on 24-01-2007 09:46 | |
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| Hmmm, I have no idea. I am guessing that some people will be strongly agianst it because it is the program that is acctually creating the art, even if you are the one who created this program you yourself are not acctually painting the picture. But without you this program would never be able to do any artwork at all so.... I will have to listen and see what others say. |
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| Author | RE: Is it art? |
Sin-Mae Chung
Super Administrator
Posts: 372
Joined: 07.12.06
 | | Posted on 24-01-2007 11:05 | |
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hello there. i remember commenting on ur work.. to be honest i was fooled to believe u actually painted that since the developement of the work throughout playback honestly looked like u did. but anyways, i remember coming by a debate thread about this one.
The thing with art that i have learnt is that without the artist's voice on accounts of the process or purpose or personal expression and must i mention support and belief in his or her work.. it is then marked questionable and to easily be dismissed as nothing but tasteless. but with what you have demonstrated.. the way u held ur word in defence of your approuch has won over my opinion in believing it is art. in my thoughts, i feel that what makes people wonder if it is art is due to people's views on the effort and the artist's involvement with his or her own work,.. by saying that i base this on:
-seen and heard of artists hiring people to do their work for them such as billy apple
-evolution of abstract and abstraction art thanks to picasso; jackson pollock and plenty others and
-the concept of ready mades demonstrated by marchel duchamp (whoa excuse the spelling mistakes its way too late in the evening)
technological advances of the period are also a huge factor of the change in art, for example the invention of what we all know and love using THE CAMERA! i mean can you imagine what crazy debates arised on whether photography was or wasn't art? now it would be unthinkable to dismiss it being an artform, so due to the circumstances of modern technology of the 20th and 21st century, the digital age we know is here.. along with programmes such as photoshop and such, i say there is room for one more. prehaps your programme doesnt need much effort to use.. but to create is ofcourse a different story and in my mind i wonder how on earth can someone ever code anything at all! and by that someone i mean myself. i am absolutely hopeless so therefore i stick with what i know.. the traditional ways in doing things. i call what you have created a powerful example of adapting to the times and changing the face of art  .
theres my two cents!
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| Author | RE: Is it art? |
Jozsef Fejes
Super Administrator
Posts: 10
Joined: 18.01.07
| | Posted on 24-01-2007 12:56 | |
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the developement of the work throughout playback honestly looked like u did. but anyways, i remember coming by a debate thread about this one.
Yeah, that was my purpose, to make it look very real, it made my project a lot more difficult, but seems like it worked.
The thing with art that i have learnt is that without the artist's voice on accounts of the process or purpose or personal expression and must i mention support and belief in his or her work.. it is then marked questionable and to easily be dismissed as nothing but tasteless.
I guess you're right. But there's no end to this, every piece of art will always be questionable by some people, but the amount of those questions makes a difference. And I can't feel anything but gratitude that you questioned it because that got me and possibly others thinking.
technological advances of the period are also a huge factor of the change in art, for example the invention of what we all know and love using THE CAMERA! i mean can you imagine what crazy debates arised on whether photography was or wasn't art? now it would be unthinkable to dismiss it being an artform
That's a great example. Cameras and Photoshop are great tools, but they don't work by themselves, the artist has to put his efforts into them, he puts a soul into the artwork. In contrast, the problem with my tool is that it does work by itself, if anyone else but me uses it, then the effort, the soul, the true meaning would be missing. But since there's only me using it, it's all fine.
And anyways, I don't even know what art means, or maybe I do: it can mean anything. Art is what other people see as art. Not the artwork itself, but what's behind it, no matter what tools were used. Behind my picture is my program, behind my program is a human, and inside that human there's me, a soul that tore a piece of itself out, put it into that drawing and there's the result, so I just love that drawing because I'm behind it, in it. When someone sees it, they see me. When they learn that it was computer generated, they begin to have doubts. And when they read this, they'll change their minds again and see me again
Technology changes, tools change, we have no idea how the whole world is going to change, but the ideology will always remain the same, we just have to find it everywhere, right?
Edited by Jozsef Fejes on 24-01-2007 13:02 |
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| Author | RE: Is it art? |
Sin-Mae Chung
Super Administrator
Posts: 372
Joined: 07.12.06
| | Posted on 24-01-2007 13:26 | |
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oh yes.. everything we know needs to be found.. a discovery and learning period, then interpreting and translating therefor producing..
oh there will never be one definate answer on the meaning of the word art, just a general idea of a taught definition that then is altered by our own experiences to whether we each agree or accept on a few points of those basic understanding which we then refine and interpret the way we feel what the word means. damn us humans for being so complexed.
when we are taught the word art, we are given default images of what art is, i mean when we think art.. i bet we all think painting.. and then recall most likely a renaissance painting (being largely documented and ground breaking in naturalistic/realistic techniques, and along with it being a period of painting that documented one of the largest religions of western culture, and most influencial while awe inspiring), but anyways what i was trying to get at here is that art is so complex due to the historical sense and build up of styles and along with having art from each global cummunity.. and since we can only understand ourselves and our own cultural up bringing and knowledge we can see art as being art for what it is of personal, 3rd party, society and our time, unless we learn of the past thoughroughly but that is time consuming for the most of us.. and we all take the fast tour through all that information anyway. i know my lectures are giving us all the basics i would have to do a shovel load of reading to know heaps.
oh btw.. i reckon that you keeping ur programme for ur own personal use is right of you. and not having it as a free upload but users to easily duplicate images will definately keep people from freely using the programme of basically with not much effort or putting up meaningless works. it keeps originality.. and i think that is what you and those who are supporting ur reasons mean. although the images you may use came stir up debate.. but people may forget about the use of appropriation, i suggest u yell at them "Andy warhol people!!!" lol. screen printing, photocoping, photomontage... so many throughout!
Edited by Sin-Mae Chung on 24-01-2007 13:36 |
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| Author | RE: Is it art? |
Auueffe
Member
Posts: 3
Joined: 02.10.06
 | | Posted on 24-01-2007 17:54 | |
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To begin: I think you've managed some awesome kind of programming.. I wouldn't know where to begin with something like this (Ok i don't know a lot about programming but still..)
I think that art is about the unexpected and new ideas. And this qualifies as such i think..
Also: Art is about descussion and letting people think about what you've got to say. And youv'e managed that for sure 
It certainly is a really different kind of art than we mostly expect.. Sin-Mea Chung gave a great example of revolutionary art-forms: photo's. But there's a important difference between photo's/photoshop and your program: Those way's of creating 'regular' art is based on shape, light, composition and color. While creating your picture your program has copied the colors from an already photo and is thus not 'art' in that perticular way of looking at it.
So I would say your picture is art, but not an text book example of visual art .
good job btw
greets Annette
Edited by Auueffe on 24-01-2007 17:56 |
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| Author | RE: Is it art? |
Joe Montgomery
Member
Posts: 124
Joined: 13.12.06
 | | Posted on 25-01-2007 04:13 | |
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THE ENERGY OF EVERYTHING IS ART, AND THIS ENERGY IS JUST TRANSFERRED FROM ONE MEDIUM TO ANOTHER.
IMAGINE SOMEONE SEEING, DREAMING OR FEELING SOMETHING, THINKING, MAN THAT WOULD MAKE A COOL PIECE.
AS SOON AS THE IMAGE IS FORMED IN THE BRAIN IT IS YOUR ART. NOW IT IS JUST A MATTER OF ENERGY TRANSFER, TO THE NEXT MEDIUM, BUT IT IS ALREADY ART.
THE IMAGE IN THE BRAIN IS TRANSFERED IN THE FORM OF ELECTRICAL SIGNALS CARRIED AND TRANSMITTED BY NEURONS THROUGH NERVOUS SYSTEM AND MUSCULAR SYNOPSES INTO TOOLS, AND VIA THEM ONTO ANOTHER MEDIUM.
WE ARE ALL ABLE TO CREATE ART BUT UNFORTUNATELY SOME STRUGGLE WITH THE MEDIUM TRANSFER. I FEEL SAD WHEN I HEAR SOMEONE SAY "-OH I WISH I COULD PAINT" OR "-OH I WISH I COULD DRAW". I KNOW THE ART IS ALREADY THERE INSIDE THEM BUT WILL BE PROBABLY BE LOST. SOME OF IT COULD BE GREAT ART, STUNNING MASTERPIECES.
THIS PIECE IS ART TOO AND IT WAS TRANSFERED TO THE PROJECT USING A SLIGHT VARIATION OF WHAT WE DID.
IT ALREADY EXISTED AS ART IN THE FORM OF A PHOTO TAKEN BY SOME ARTIST.
NOW IT IS ART IN THE FORM OF ENERGY YET IT IS DIFFERENT FROM THE PHOTO BECAUSE IT CARRIES ADDED ENERGY FROM JOZSEFS BRAIN. THE ENERGY USED TO MAKE THE TOOL DRAW . HE KNOWS HE CANT TAKE CREDIT FOR THE ENERGY FROM THE PHOTO BUT HE CAN TAKE CREDIT FOR THE ENERGY MAKING THE PENCIL DRAW WHAT IT DID.
OUR MENTAL IMAGE WAS TRANSFERED TO THE PROJECT BY THE USE OF THE BRAIN WHICH MOVED ARM HAND FINGER AND THEN MOUSE,TRACKBALL OR TABLET. WHICH MOVED CURSOR
THIS IS PHYSICALLY VERY HARD BUT MENTALLY FAIRLY EASY AND AS ACCURATE AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE.
IN JOZSEFS CASE MENTAL IMAGE WAS REPLACED BY A PHOTO WHICH ENERGY WAS TRANSFERRED TO THE PROJECT BY MOVING THE SAME CURSOR WITH A PROGRAM. INPUT VIA A KEYBOARD FINGERS ARMS AND ENERGY IN HIS BRAIN. THE RESULT IS STILL GOING TO BE ART.
IT WAS PROBABLY MENTALLY HARDER BUT PHYSICALLY VERY EASY AND AS ACCURATE AS THE ALGORITHM CREATED BY HIS BRAIN. IN THIS CASE THE ALGORITHM USED WAS FAIRLY ACCURATE. 
IMAGINE A GREAT PAINTER LOOSING HIS ARMS. HIS HEAD IS FULL OF ART AND HE WANTS TO TRANSFER IT TO SOME OTHER MEDIUM. HE GETS A VOICE ACTIVATED ROBOT TO DRAW THE STROKES HE WANTS. HE IS STILL A GREAT PAINTER WITH A ROBOT BRUSH. IMAGES IN THE PAINTERS BRAIN TRANSFERED INTO SOUND WAVES TRANSFERED INTO ONES AND ZEROS TRANSFERED INTO MOTION TRANSFERRING THE IMAGE ONTO ANOTHER MEDIUM. IT WOULD STILL BE ART
WHEN THE PROJECT IT IS UP AND RUNNING WHAT WE SEE IS ENERGY IN THE FORM OF LIGHT. COMPUTERS ARE BEING TOLD TO DRAW THE VARIOUS SHADES OF COLOR YOU SEE ON YOUR SCREEN.
WHEN THE SERVERS ARE DOWN IT IS STORED IN MAGNETIC FIELDS FORMED BY MAGNETIC GRAINS ON THE DISKS OF THE SERVERS. ANOTHER TYPE OF ENERGY.
WHEN THE SERVERS ARE UP AND RUNNING AGAIN THE FORMATION OF THESE MAGNETIC FIELDS ARE TRANSLATED INTO ONES AND ZEROS AND THEN INTO VARIOUS TYPE OF CODE UNTIL IT AGAIN CAN BE VIEWED AS VARIOUS SHADES OF COLORED LIGHT ON YOUR SCREEN.
THESE ARE THE STATES IT WILL STAY UNTIL IT IS TRANSFERED TO SOME OTHER MEDIUM LIKE ON BACKUP DVD OR TAPE STORAGE OR FINAL PRINTOUT
SOME SQUARES ALREADY EXIST ON OTHER MEDIUMS SINCE THEY HAVE BEEN PRINTED IN THE CALENDARS.
IT IS COOL THAT THIS PROJECT IS A BUNCH OF PICS MAKING ONE BIG ONE BUT THE COOLEST THING ABOUT THIS PROJECT IS ACTUALLY THE ENERGY. THE ENERGY YOU TRANSFER TO THIS PROJECT WILL BE CONNECTED TO MY ENERGY AND MINE TO YOURS. OUR ENERGY WILL ALWAYS BE TIED TOGETHER IN THIS PROJECT. IT IS ONE GIANT ENERGY HANDSHAKE.
LATER PEACE OUT JOE
NOTE TO SELF NO MORE THAN 12 RED BULL A DAY
Edited by Joe Montgomery on 25-01-2007 04:35 |
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| Author | RE: Is it art? |
Lynn .
Member
Posts: 1
Joined: 22.01.07
 | | Posted on 26-01-2007 10:57 | |
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| hmmm...all i know is i drew mine with a mouse and no special effects so i am excited and thrilled and want to do more. this was my first digital drawing and i love seeing it and others play back from start to finish and find the possibilities to be endless! |
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| Author | RE: Is it art? |
Nik Heeley
Member
Posts: 1
Joined: 20.02.07
 | | Posted on 21-02-2007 02:29 | |
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I agree with the whole making the program is art, because it is ingenious in itself, but the image it creates (in my eyes anyways) is not art in itself because something has just been programmed to do it. Art should be full of the artist's soul and something they have hand-made... But then that brings me back to how you've "hand-made" the program... Damn I'm stuck! Haha. Personally I think art is more pen-on-paper type, like artists drawing directly onto a canvas (whether it be pen to paper or digital tablet to photoshop).
Edited by Nik Heeley on 21-02-2007 02:29 |
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| Author | RE: Is it art? |
Laura Grace Rafferty
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: 30.11.06
 | | Posted on 17-03-2007 01:57 | |
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| The program is art I just hope it's not used by anyone else - since really it is a generation program after all Nice work with that coding, must have taken ages! I'll stick to drawing, all said and told, I like to draw far more than I like to code! |
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| Author | RE: Is it art? |
J West
Super Administrator
Posts: 78
Joined: 17.07.06
 | | Posted on 22-08-2007 09:02 | |
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Have posted a comment on this on the news page publicising this.
I remain unconvinced.
Art comes from within, regardless of capability - so in one sense the thought was there, but still feel it a lil bit of a cheats way of doing it.
Reading Sin-Mae Chung's insightful comments (hiya - hope you're well), sorry I don't like Pollock but do like the Pop artists. I do think there is a fine line between an artistic person and being just a creator.
I guess it is all subjective like any art, everyone has their own opinion and I am not the sort to think that just traditional technique and painting is 'art'. But as mentioned in my other posted comment I feel that we lose something special when technical prowess takes over human endeavour.
Great that it has got people thinking and discussing it though - another set back of technology and I myself am a victim of this. Technology make us think less.
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| Author | RE: Is it art? |
J West
Super Administrator
Posts: 78
Joined: 17.07.06
| | Posted on 22-08-2007 09:15 | |
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~Hang on . . .
You all know what I mean when I say 'think less'.
AS one might argue that code takes a lot of thinking, of course it does, not something I would ever know how to do! Just that technology makes life that bit easier for most, therefore we become a little lazier.
How often have I switched on the TV or computer just because it is there and easier rather than picking up a book or doing something more constructive. Creative even. Daft eh?
And there are many more like me in doing this - scarily so more of a younger generation too.
Anyways. You know.
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| Author | RE: Is it art? |
J West
Super Administrator
Posts: 78
Joined: 17.07.06
| | Posted on 24-08-2007 22:29 | |
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Ps. On reflection those with access to the new software ought to be monitored, as it appears they are given free reign to scan anything in and upload it. If others are restricted to only use this software for already hand drawn items, then surely this should apply across the board?
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| Author | RE: Is it art? |
Paul Fisher
Super Administrator
Posts: 277
Joined: 25.06.06
| | Posted on 24-08-2007 23:00 | |
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I really do appreciate your point of view, but let me try to reasure you.
There will only be one single person who will have access to this software, and that person will be provided the images for upload through a vetting panel. Joszef is conducting tests of his program at the moment - hence there are quite a few complicated images on his profile.
The program will only be used to upload images drawn by people who physically cannot contribute online (for example, we are holding a workshop at a Londona based charity with a group of partially sighted children) or people of high profile that will increase exposure and participation simple through association with the project.
It is a tough call. Initially I had hoped for a single point of entry, a one rune for all approach. I should add that in 99.9% of cases this will still be the case, but there will be a handful of cases, chosen on merit and labelled as such, that will use the software.
This is still all up in the air, and as I type there are no scanned images other than those being tested by Jozsef, but I appreaciate the debate! |
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| Author | RE: Is it art? |
J West
Super Administrator
Posts: 78
Joined: 17.07.06
| | Posted on 24-08-2007 23:38 | |
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And one test included topless women of course? Subjective/controversial, when so realistic wouldn't you think?
Aaahhhh. I trust you, honest gov. Thousands wouldn't - hee heeee. But I have been on this site and part of it long enough to know that whatever you do is for a good cause - of course. And that obviously you need to do whatever it is you need to do to promote.
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| Author | RE: Is it art? |
Jozsef Fejes
Super Administrator
Posts: 10
Joined: 18.01.07
| | Posted on 29-08-2007 19:50 | |
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About my drawings: like Paul said, main purpose was testing indeed, but you might say that I could have deleted them afterwards, but I didn't: because they are just beautiful, so why not let everyone else be amused? I do like to watch those replays, and other people love it too, that's for sure. As long as it's clearly indicated how they were made, they are just a lot of fun to watch. It's not about the voting, I wouldn't care if it would be disabled on those test images, and not about the final picture either, first, because only one drawing will make it there, second, even about that one, I wouldn't mind if a group of people or OMM staff convinced me to make a drawing on my own for the final picture But I don't see why ONE scanned PHOTO (not celeb drawing) would be a problem. As long as its the only one of its kind, strictly, like I've always said. And about the nude drawing: I don't even think that it's not child friendly, but of course, if people tell me that I should mark it as such, I will. Otherwise, it's just as beautiful as any other drawing, no problem here either
About the future celeb drawings: I can assure you too that you were mistaken, the software won't be sent to anyone else, instead drawings will be sent to OMM, those, and only those images will be scanned, and only by OMM staff. We lose the mouse moving part, we keep the handmade drawing part, and we win a lot of fame - it's an advantage and nothing else It will happen, and not because the staff says so (at least, not only ), but because it helps a lot.
And let me make it clear, I'm not defending myself (not anymore at least ), I'm sure I'm doing the right thing, my comments are just to help people understand, make everything clear. I do believe that if someone doesn't see the whole picture about this software, then it's no surprise that they don't like the idea, but when they understand, they accept it, or even like it. So I hope everyone else with doubts reads this
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| Author | RE: Is it art? |
J West
Super Administrator
Posts: 78
Joined: 17.07.06
| | Posted on 29-08-2007 21:11 | |
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Hey, it was you who first asked the question 'is it art?'
And I have responded openly and honestly. I'm not knocking what you have done, I am just airing my own view and concerns - the point of a forum is it not? And I do see the whole picture and have seen it longer than you have, so don't think that I am disapproving of 'the idea'. I wasn't to know that your growth in squares of such reality was an organised test?
As for the nude - I first did life drawing years ago now, so it's not a point of the naked body that worries me. It is the treatment and yes access to this site of all ages does worry me a little. As you see many scribbled willies on OMM, but you would think twice of having such a realistic/lifelike image of one on the site - wouldn't you?
Anyway, you wanted to discuss it and discussed it we definitely have. And now your work is going to be put to good use, so relax and enjoy. |
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| Author | RE: Is it art? |
Jozsef Fejes
Super Administrator
Posts: 10
Joined: 18.01.07
| | Posted on 29-08-2007 22:24 | |
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I wrote an answer here in the quick reply form, clicked the wrong "post reply" button, and all gone  In short: it's not a problem that you answered, it did seem disapproving, but I'm still grateful for all comments, the main reason why I wrote my previous post is to tell everyone the facts, like now you know it was primarily a test, but not organized, rather just my own freetime activity, it was always my secondary goal to keep the test results so I chose the photos very carefully, that children thing worried me too, maybe it's worth another topic |
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| Author | RE: Is it art? |
Giovanni Robustelli
Member
Posts: 3
Joined: 02.09.07
 | | Posted on 03-09-2007 10:48 | |
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Ther art is the language. It have need of a reply in a sign of the contemporary time. The beauty of the image, the real apparence, it is the "surface" of the art.
The your work is very exceptional, for your tecnic (you know very good the pen-tablet), but it is not art. But you just know...
In this project, it's not necessary to do art. The concept of this web-site is the very art.
We can do a little contribute with the great images...as your! |
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