| Author | RE: Auto-draw tools 559267 |
Sin-Mae Chung
Super Administrator
Posts: 372
Joined: 07.12.06
 | | Posted on 29-01-2007 11:31 | |
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Pika Kahvi wrote:Haha! Great thread. So this project is now about "showing your capability of painting"? Did I miss something? Last time I checked it was about charity and world's largest artistic collaboration, nothing about showing off anyone's painting skills (though, that's not forbidden either =). From the About The One Million Masterpiece
We are asking you to draw a small square image using software on our website. You don't need to be an artist or be able to draw - you can make patterns, write words, doodle - what-ever you want. I didn't use the software provided to create my image - I can see that as a bad thing. But I see nothing wrong with Jozsef's way of doing it. Correct me if I am wrong - Jose did everything by the OMM rules. Does it say somewhere that you must only use mouse or graphics tablet to move the cursor around the canvas? I guess this OMM software issue should make me even more "evil" than Jose, but, I've got many comments, still none of them was negative. Why is that? This makes me think that some people are being just plain jealous seeing such a fantastic work as Jose's and they can't believe it. Then they find out it's been done using programming knowledge and get mad. "Ah! I can probably draw better than him, but he gets all the attention because of his stupid programming! B@stard!" If you can't do something that good yourself - it doesn't mean that it's unfair. Some people use $15 mouse, some people use $80 tablet, some people use $2000 LCD touchscreen tablet and some people use their programming knowledge. Say what is fair? Let's move on. After all, I wouldn't mind seeing some photorealistic images in this huge mosaic. They wouldn't make it any worse, no, they would add some more change to it, make it more interesting. And I don't care if someone can't draw like that. Those complaining people should concentrate on their own work instead. My reply might sound a little emotional, but I hope it doesn't offend anyone personally. It's a good thing we can have debate about anything here. Cheers 
yes.. i was just thinking that.. thank you pika for pointing that out.. i cant believe there are people demanding to see talent as if there is only one way to demonstrate it.. in this case i feel that programming and coding around OMM's software for jozsef is a talent. forget about what is fair or not as we all know ourselves that we have our own way in creating art.. and if programming for one person gets him or herself to create a probably not original art work, but may be an original way or process of art making.
i mean other than the fact that this person didnt use his own hand or skill of drawing. and if we basically break the idea of drawing down it is just using your hand to create movement through a mark making instrument. its like seeing that he didnt choose to use that form of working.. but of a different form of his own.
someone mentioned warhol b4 and yes i feel that there is a relationship between warhol and jozsef's approuches, the difference that you can say is that one used screen printing and the other is using digital means. sure jozsef used an image that isnt orignal but who these days dont use existing references to develop further? i bet you all that when you guys go scrolling through the pages of OMM that there is definately some artwork that have had some visual aid.
but anyways.. i definately feel even though there hasnt been the artist's physical contribution to the artwork itself.. jozsef may still have a hidden intention or purpose behind his masterpiece, i mean.. as we debate through these threads or through his profile.. he has succeeded, by god.. not just.. he has WON. his artwork has made an impression, stirred conversation and aroused many positives and negative feelings, and in art.. that is bloody successful if you ask me.  |
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| Author | RE: Auto-draw tools 559267 |
Timo Jääskeläinen
Member
Posts: 76
Joined: 06.01.07
 | | Posted on 29-01-2007 11:57 | |
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Pip Hignett wrote:
I'm sure that this concern also extends to other copyright and trademark issues in other images. There are lots of hand drawn images of trademarked cartoon characters on the OMM too.
I think you got that right. You can take the same Mena's photo and draw it by hand - that would probably be just as much copyright violation as one you did using software to draw it for you.
From OMM Terms and Conditions ("LEGAL")
Images created that depict or transmit a message which [...] (ii) violate or infringe upon the rights of any third party [...] are not permitted.
I don't understand legal language very well, does the statement above have something to do with copyright violations? So we are going to ban them all? You can probably see member count dropping by a thousand if we do that. And then problem is that they will never stop coming. :P
But I know nothing about copyright violations regarding this subject either, so I'll just shut up now. :X
As for creating with some extra software in general - it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to use someone else's painting or photo, you can use your own as well. So there should be no problem in using add-on software itself, I guess.
Edited by Timo Jääskeläinen on 29-01-2007 12:00 |
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| Author | RE: Auto-draw tools 559267 |
Jozsef Fejes
Super Administrator
Posts: 10
Joined: 18.01.07
 | | Posted on 29-01-2007 15:51 | |
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Pip Hignett wrote:
I'm sure that this concern also extends to other copyright and trademark issues in other images. There are lots of hand drawn images of trademarked cartoon characters on the OMM too.
Wow, I never even thought about that. On one hand, copyright holders are right, because someone had worked a lot to develop Mickey mouse, and they don't want anyone else profiting from that. On the other hand they're wrong because this website is nonprofit in legal sense I guess, so it wouldn't be fair if someone objected about the content. This could be a very, very long debate, like the one about software patents. I say let's cross the bridge when we get to it, if a lawyer threatens me, I'll just remove my drawing, or make it look like a little bit different so that it only resembles Mena Suvari  |
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| Author | RE: Auto-draw tools 559267 |
Jozsef Fejes
Super Administrator
Posts: 10
Joined: 18.01.07
| | Posted on 29-01-2007 16:04 | |
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Sin-Mae Chung wrote:but anyways.. i definately feel even though there hasnt been the artist's physical contribution to the artwork itself.. jozsef may still have a hidden intention or purpose behind his masterpiece, i mean.. as we debate through these threads or through his profile.. he has succeeded, by god.. not just.. he has WON. his artwork has made an impression, stirred conversation and aroused many positives and negative feelings, and in art.. that is bloody successful if you ask me.
To tell the truth, I didn't have that intention, it was a surprise. When I first saw this website, I knew instantly that I was going to contribute. I soon realized that I can't draw (I tried ). But I wanted to create something beautiful for everyone's benefit, and you can see what I came up with. Then I believed that there's nothing more to it, but I was wrong about that. Turns out I got a lot more than I asked for, I mean these forum threads. I never thought it would come to this, but now I'm really happy that it did Yeah, that's success, not just for me but anyone who's impressed by my work or the conversation. Noone should be jealous of that, I do respect everyone else's work, and we all work for the same goal, right? Alright, at first I thought it's kind of a competition (the leaderboard on the welcome page gave me the impression), but that doesn't matter anymore, I'm already satisfied with the results |
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| Author | RE: Auto-draw tools 559267 |
Sin-Mae Chung
Super Administrator
Posts: 372
Joined: 07.12.06
| | Posted on 30-01-2007 00:14 | |
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Jozsef Fejes wrote:To tell the truth, I didn't have that intention, it was a surprise. When I first saw this website, I knew instantly that I was going to contribute. I soon realized that I can't draw (I tried ). But I wanted to create something beautiful for everyone's benefit, and you can see what I came up with. Then I believed that there's nothing more to it, but I was wrong about that. Turns out I got a lot more than I asked for, I mean these forum threads. I never thought it would come to this, but now I'm really happy that it did Yeah, that's success, not just for me but anyone who's impressed by my work or the conversation. Noone should be jealous of that, I do respect everyone else's work, and we all work for the same goal, right? Alright, at first I thought it's kind of a competition (the leaderboard on the welcome page gave me the impression), but that doesn't matter anymore, I'm already satisfied with the results
well sir, ur intention could be anything infact. but anyways.. for the resulting effect of ur piece.. indeed u should be proud of ur unintended now intended result .. im not making much sense am i? oh well it happens.
but anyways, in many cases u can say that any reaction is imposible to ditermine when it comes to art. for urself to not expect the amount of encouragement or backslashing is pretty normal. in most cases people backslash at something that they cant understand or even grasp any idea on how someone does it.. |
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| Author | RE: Auto-draw tools 559267 |
Ashleigh Peacock
Member
Posts: 13
Joined: 10.11.06
 | | Posted on 30-01-2007 21:32 | |
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hmmm well as far as I can say this is art after all you did create the program that did this and what is art but creation.
My concern here would be copyright.
The thing of it is this is an exact copy of another persons existing work non-profit charity or not.
At the same time though you never passes it off as your own, though maybe it would have been wise to have asked direct permission. After all there have been posters and such have been made from the pics and who knows yours might end up on something. Also when the final piece is shown to the public there will be no way to give credit to it's original creator.
*sigh* copyright is always a tricky subject. |
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| Author | RE: Auto-draw tools 559267 |
Jim
Super Administrator
Posts: 159
Joined: 30.11.06
 | | Posted on 03-02-2007 05:32 | |
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Personally, I didn't like it when I heard that people were using auto-drawing programs, but at least people like Jozsef have the decency to admit that they use it. He may argue that programming is a form of art, but at least he shows that he believes what he says by admitting to it and debating his point. (personally I believe that the this site was dedicated to the art that could be produced with the tools alreday provided, image, poem, statement, or otherwise. I would prefer that people using these programs at least stated them directly in the titles. Truth be told, most people are too lazy to click the links before rating/commenting the picture, myself included.
I consider this an unfair advantage, and I disapprove.
"We are asking you to draw a small square image using software on our website." The way I read this, I figured it meant using the software on the website soley. Perhaps I misjudged the meaning of it, but I imagine so many other people did as well. Why simply say "create an image anyway you want, using any tools you want" or something along those lines? I had thought that one purpose of this site was to answer the subliminal question "If 1 million people with different views, stratagies, and skill levels were all made to use the same tools and restrictions, what would be the finished product?"
My belief is without limiting it to the tools accessable naturally on this site, its no different than having 1 million people go and find any picture (even someone elses work) and stick it up. A giant "copy-paste" image board, rather than a site showcasing drawing style/ability/perserverance/expression.
Edited by Jim on 03-02-2007 09:08 |
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| Author | RE: Auto-draw tools 559267 |
Tom Long
Member
Posts: 9
Joined: 14.01.07
 | | Posted on 05-02-2007 17:02 | |
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Isaac Wirtz wrote:
I consider this an unfair advantage, and I disapprove.
You are making this sound like a competition.
I think this piece is interesting, clever and artistic. Just as you invested your time in drawing your own picture with a mouse or tablet, Jozsef spent his time writing a script which would draw his picture. It was skilfully done, and unique. I think it's important to note that Jozsef didn't release his program to the public, spawning hundreds of cheap copycats and destroying its originality.
On the other hand, if one of these programs was released, we'd be overrun with what the hackers call 'skiddies', people who take someone else's work and using no skill of their own, copy it indiscriminately. That would be a bad thing.
I'd say that anyone with the skill to write a program to do this, should be respected for it. |
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| Author | RE: Auto-draw tools 559267 |
Jim
Super Administrator
Posts: 159
Joined: 30.11.06
| | Posted on 06-02-2007 03:34 | |
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The thing is, even though this isn't a competition, it is a display of peoples ability to express themselves with only the tools given to them and their own personal ability to adapt. Using an outside tool to circumvent the restrictions is the same thing as cheating on a test, while the test may not be a competition, its not fair for that person to be displayed along all of the other people who work hard on that test. I do think its honorable that he didn't "share the cheat sheet" with the public, completely voiding the whole drawing system, and I do respect hard work, and especially people who do their own programming, but still... I don't think its right or ethical to put it in the same catagory, I would be fine with a different catagory where people can do whatever they want to get a final outcome, but this project is about multiple people using the equal software tools to see their personal, and collective outcomes.
I think people like Joszef should be more involved with the development and security of the site, he could try to "break the system" and then help make sure it doesn't happen by other people, like a tester. That is an place where everyone can appreciate his skill and he can use it with honor. |
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| Author | RE: Auto-draw tools 559267 |
Jim
Super Administrator
Posts: 159
Joined: 30.11.06
| | Posted on 06-02-2007 04:05 | |
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Some people use $15 mouse, some people use $80 tablet, some people use $2000 LCD touchscreen tablet and some people use their programming knowledge. Say what is fair? Let's move on.
Just to cover this, simply because I neglected to in my previous posts, Once again I will refer to my alagory of taking a test. Say a math test. Some more privaledged people have better calculators than others, but does this mean that they will do better? I think not, I think it matters what the person knows about the subject, and figuring it out. The same thing with this art site, people can buy as expensive "calculators" as they want, but the quality of the art doesn't rest simply on how well its drawn, but more on the expression and personal touches. For example, the space monkey picture, not terribly lifelike, but still one of the greatest pictures on this site in my opinion because of the expression. It does a fantastic job of showing the love a woman feels for her husband, and how love is contagious through other people's art. In this case Joszef took a beautiful picture of a beautiful woman, and rather than displaying his attempt, or his expression of his impression he got from the original picture, he uses a machine to copy the picture almost exactly, not showing any of his own personal expression, and losing all that expression that came from the original picture taker. Since I believe that drawing art is all about expression, I consider this a picture, not art or anything personal to the "artist"
What I personally think would be a very honorable display of art was if rather than deleting the picture, Joszef were to color over it in white, and make his own rendition. Showing, as best he can, the original, and his perception of it. The would demonstrate the way the the human mind often sees art figuratively rather than realistically, based on feelings and emotion drawn from the piece rather than simply acknowledging it as a meaningless picture. Hopefully people would watch the movie and see the translation from the physical eye, to the minds eye. That would be one of the most ultimate expressions of art in my opnion.
Joszef, you are a talented programmer, obviously, but I personally want to know how YOU see the picture, not how it was taken. |
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| Author | RE: Auto-draw tools 559267 |
Lesley Tooze
Member
Posts: 6
Joined: 17.10.06
 | | Posted on 13-02-2007 11:12 | |
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I don't know about the legal issue and I have no problem with various tools being used but I think that as Jozsef used a sophisticated programme (that he designed himself and isn't that the most amazing thing!) that he did the right thing in making it clear how he created his image. Therefore, it is a fabulous piece of artwork.
But isn't art more than just about re-producing a lifelike image anyway? Or whether it elicits an emotion from the viewer? Most of the work in OMM is amazingly unique, whether it's a splodge of colour, a simple line drawing or a complex design. It's a form of communication and brings out the personality of the artist and that is what interests me the most.
And personally, I think we should thank Jozsef for his work in stimulating such an interesting debate!
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| Author | RE: Auto-draw tools 559267 |
Sarah Edwards
Super Administrator
Posts: 161
Joined: 03.01.07
 | | Posted on 05-07-2007 18:26 | |
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This whole project is on the computer, and it really is modern art and using new technology to make art. I see nothing wrong with having this type of entry. Whilst some people here show great capability in observation, or just general drawing (I don't really think you can call it painting as you don't use paint) this person shows capability with computers and programming. Because the whole nature of the project is on the computer, I don't think it is right to delete those who are using it for their piece. I agree with many comments here: the tools provided are only a starting point, whatever you do from then on is you and your expression, especially if you made your own programming instead of downloading someone elses.
I don't think there should be an issue here (aside from copyright, but I have no idea abou the laws surrounding that so I won't try to give an opinion) and I think that the people who have done nothing in their squares for months should be the ones who we should focus on deleting. |
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| Author | RE: Auto-draw tools 559267 |
P H
Super Administrator
Posts: 213
Joined: 07.09.06
 | | Posted on 10-08-2007 11:45 | |
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Just thought I would bump this thread up to the top as it relates to the current news item about Jozsef's latest contribution to the project.
Edited by P H on 10-08-2007 11:45 |
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| Author | RE: Auto-draw tools 559267 |
Shanna
Member
Posts: 45
Joined: 24.09.07
 | | Posted on 11-01-2008 12:28 | |
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Well i think its just cool that Jozsef told people about how he made the image, and hes given us all something to talk about. It could have gone the other way and he kept it a secret and took all this glory for being so amazingly good at art. good on you for spending ur time on it
Personally I dont care, because im proud of my little sqaures and someone else having fantastic art (no matter how it got there) doesn't bother me at all. |
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| Author | RE: Auto-draw tools 559267 |
Eamonn
Super Administrator
Posts: 216
Joined: 24.06.06
 | | Posted on 04-01-2010 04:40 | |
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| Square 501579 deleted as requested... |
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